Perm’d by God
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Post by Perm’d by God on May 7, 2024 12:00:04 GMT -5
leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2024/05/the-encampment-at-the-university-of-chicago.htmlThought this was worth a read. “One problem, of course, is that many of those involved in the encampment are in the grips of a religious fervor that, like most religious fervors, discounts the relevance of any other aspect of life, and is often detached from relevant facts. To be clear, that is also a virtue of the encampment: those with religious fervor, those without regard for prudential considerations, often thrust into public view issues the official mediators of public apinion would prefer to ignore.” “Some people outside the University ask, ‘Why are students protesting the University, which has nothing to do with the atrocities in Gaza?’ The UChicago chapter of ‘Faculty for Justice in Palestine’ argues that the University is ‘complicit’ in Israeli crimes, but this is a stretch, since none of the activities singled out actually make a discernible causal contribution to those crimes. (By this "logic," the University is also "complicit" in the Chinese persecution of the Uyghurs, the U.S. war of aggression against Iraq, and so on.) The reason for students to protest the University is a lot simpler: it is where the students are, it is an important societal institution, and protests here draw attention to the horrors in Gaza. Since the latter is the real point, every choice of strategy should reflect that goal. That hasn't been the case here (e.g., "disband the campus police," "end gentrification"), but overall the encampment and protest do serve to make clear that what's happening in Gaza is utterly unacceptable to a visible segment of the population, and that raises the odds that those with the real power to turn off the spigot of arms and money may do so. Or so one may hope.”
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meatballmaniac
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Post by meatballmaniac on May 7, 2024 12:11:25 GMT -5
I saw two wild-ass bumper stickers yesterday:
“Fuck fentanyl”
“Gavin Newsom for President”
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Percussionist Foster Grant
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Post by Percussionist Foster Grant on May 7, 2024 12:16:47 GMT -5
The funniest thing about the liberal vs conservative "protest as free speech" thing is most conservatives don't understand how breaking into the hub of American democracy to damage and take shits on things is worse than college kids occupying buildings, marching, or even looting/burning stores.
Many don't even "get" how crimes can be worse when you cross state lines to commit them, when they're perpetrated inside/on federal property, etc... so how could they possibly understand why their brother/coworker/whatever is in prison and college kids aren't?
You almost feel sorry for em sometimes (not really tho).
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hAloween h2o fan
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Post by hAloween h2o fan on May 7, 2024 12:16:48 GMT -5
I am never voting for someone named Gavin lol
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killedbyboard
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Post by killedbyboard on May 7, 2024 12:18:52 GMT -5
I think the "complicity" argument highlights how insidious the suffering of others is in our global economy. There is probably nothing you can buy that has not, in some part of it's creation, resulted in or been born out of some measure of human suffering. Equivocating complicity in Israel's crimes with its complicity in the Iraq War, or China's persecution of Uyghers serves to highlight the opposite point the article was trying to make, in my mind. Yes; we are all complicit in these crimes, which are at once too big and too small to deal with. We are seeing in real time people waking up and realizing that the threads of our comfort are sewn into the world's suffering by design.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2024 12:24:06 GMT -5
I think the "complicity" argument highlights how insidious the suffering of others is in our global economy. There is probably nothing you can buy that has not, in some part of its creation, resulted in or been born out of some measure of human suffering. Equivocating complicity in Israel's crimes with its complicity in the Iraq War, or China's persecution of Uyghers serves to highlight the opposite point the article was trying to make, in my mind. Yes; we are all complicit in these crimes, which are at once too big and too small to deal with. We are seeing in real time people waking up and realizing that the threads of our comfort are sewn into the world's suffering by design. Jesus Christ bro this is the most roundabout way I’ve ever heard someone say “there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.” Read Marx. Please.
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ITID
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Post by ITID on May 7, 2024 12:24:24 GMT -5
We are seeing in real time people waking up and realizing that the threads of our comfort are sewn into the world's suffering by design.
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Perm’d by God
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Post by Perm’d by God on May 7, 2024 12:28:37 GMT -5
I think the "complicity" argument highlights how insidious the suffering of others is in our global economy. There is probably nothing you can buy that has not, in some part of its creation, resulted in or been born out of some measure of human suffering. Equivocating complicity in Israel's crimes with its complicity in the Iraq War, or China's persecution of Uyghers serves to highlight the opposite point the article was trying to make, in my mind. Yes; we are all complicit in these crimes, which are at once too big and too small to deal with. We are seeing in real time people waking up and realizing that the threads of our comfort are sewn into the world's suffering by design. Jesus Christ bro this is the most roundabout way I’ve ever heard say “there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.” Read Marx. Please. Have you read Marx...? I don't think that the main takeaway concerns the supposedly "ethical consumption" that would obtain under some other socioeconomic system.
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killedbyboard
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Post by killedbyboard on May 7, 2024 12:29:14 GMT -5
I think the "complicity" argument highlights how insidious the suffering of others is in our global economy. There is probably nothing you can buy that has not, in some part of its creation, resulted in or been born out of some measure of human suffering. Equivocating complicity in Israel's crimes with its complicity in the Iraq War, or China's persecution of Uyghers serves to highlight the opposite point the article was trying to make, in my mind. Yes; we are all complicit in these crimes, which are at once too big and too small to deal with. We are seeing in real time people waking up and realizing that the threads of our comfort are sewn into the world's suffering by design. Jesus Christ bro this is the most roundabout way I’ve ever heard someone say “there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.” Read Marx. Please. Haha come on dawg. Like I haven't read Marx. I don't think the concept was as true in Marx's time as it is now, where investment is consumption, and passive, incremental complicity is more difficult to spot.
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Ass Dan
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Post by Ass Dan on May 7, 2024 12:32:52 GMT -5
Investment is consumption? Maybe you should read more Marx.
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Porch Honky
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Post by Porch Honky on May 7, 2024 12:37:57 GMT -5
The funniest thing about the liberal vs conservative "protest as free speech" thing is most conservatives don't understand how breaking into the hub of American democracy to damage and take shits on things is worse than college kids occupying buildings, marching, or even looting/burning stores. Many don't even "get" how crimes can be worse when you cross state lines to commit them, when they're perpetrated inside/on federal property, etc... so how could they possibly understand why their brother/coworker/whatever is in prison and college kids aren't? You almost feel sorry for em sometimes (not really tho). I don't cause it's simultaneously both willful ignorance and malicious intent.
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killedbyboard
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Post by killedbyboard on May 7, 2024 12:41:05 GMT -5
Investment is consumption? Maybe you should read more Marx. You don't think modern "investment" in the stock market and crypto currencies and ETFs or mutual/hedge funds is consumption? Maybe not in the strict sense, you're right, but to the extent that it makes you complicit in atrocities, I'd argue it's a distinction without a difference.
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Ass Dan
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Post by Ass Dan on May 7, 2024 12:49:44 GMT -5
Not to be pedantic here, but financial investment is really a form of savings which makes it inherently not consumption. What I think you’re getting at though is that it has the alienating feature of consumer products. The average household has no direct connection to most of the companies they’ve invested in and usually a company like Black Rock, Fidelity, or Vanguard represents them.
Unless you mean the gambling aspect of financial markets. But that has been around for a while.
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Perm’d by God
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Post by Perm’d by God on May 7, 2024 12:56:29 GMT -5
It's so fucked up that @notsean isn't here to witness this development.
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killedbyboard
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Post by killedbyboard on May 7, 2024 13:01:57 GMT -5
No I understand that, but most of the time anyone is investing, they are purchasing a financial product, and also purchasing it through the use of an app funded by advertisement and sale of your personal information etc. etc. I wasn't trying to get into a semantic debate about the difference between consumption and investment, but bringing it back to the article above, most of the students asking for "divestment" are really protesting their university's endowments "investing" in the stock market that could include shares of weapons manufacturers and other companies "complicit" in the genocide, while the article seems to make the moral distinction between this passive complicity, and active complicity. So to the extent there is "no ethical consumption" under capitalism, I'm simply saying there is increasingly no ethical "investment" either. Anyone with a 401k likely has investments in a Vanguard ETF or mutual fund which undoubtedly invest in hideous companies profiting on human suffering. Your percentage ownership of that suffering is maybe de minimis, but it's not zero.
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Perm’d by God
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Post by Perm’d by God on May 7, 2024 13:11:51 GMT -5
Universities in the United States are not in any sort of position to exert some sort of market pressure on the state of Israel, directly or indirectly. It would be a symbolic gesture, but some might argue that it is a meaningful and important symbolic gesture and should be done anyway.
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killedbyboard
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Post by killedbyboard on May 7, 2024 13:17:57 GMT -5
Universities in the United States are not in any sort of position to exert some sort of market pressure on the state of Israel, directly or indirectly. It would be a symbolic gesture, but some might argue that it is a meaningful and important symbolic gesture and should be done anyway. Right, and that's exactly what it's about I think when you look at their demands. They couldn't possibly exert financial pressure, I'm thinking it comes from 1) disgust about attending a university they feel is invested in an unjust war, and 2) exerting political pressure on the US Government to in turn exert political pressure on Israel. Which is working in part. I also didn't mean to impugn the protests, it's just funny to see their shock at being arrested, as if being arrested isn't itself an inevitable part of any effective protest.
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Perm’d by God
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Post by Perm’d by God on May 7, 2024 13:23:00 GMT -5
Eh, some are shocked and some probably aren't.
The whole "no ethical consumption under capitalism" shtick is vapid sloganeering. I don't think any legitimate criticism of capitalism boils down to "I can't find a way to buy socks without hurting someone no matter how hard I try."
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Percussionist Foster Grant
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Post by Percussionist Foster Grant on May 7, 2024 13:27:18 GMT -5
I whip a battery @ a Kohls cashier each time I purchase socks.
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Mr. Dingle Foot
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Post by Mr. Dingle Foot on May 7, 2024 13:30:40 GMT -5
Quick question: is paying for a sex worker ethical consumption?
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hAloween h2o fan
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Post by hAloween h2o fan on May 7, 2024 14:10:26 GMT -5
Quick question: is paying for a sex worker ethical consumption? only if her son is at home crying all alone on his bedroom floor cause he's hungry
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Sorley Boy
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Post by Sorley Boy on May 7, 2024 14:39:42 GMT -5
Quick question: is paying for a sex worker ethical consumption? Only if they're union.
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Perm’d by God
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Post by Perm’d by God on May 7, 2024 14:41:08 GMT -5
Foreman at the dicksucking factory local 69
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2024 14:41:40 GMT -5
sex will be forbidden
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Mr. Dingle Foot
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Post by Mr. Dingle Foot on May 7, 2024 14:46:06 GMT -5
Foreman at the dicksucking factory local 69 makes sense that you would know them but you seem like an employee who would side with the owner.
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killedbyboard
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Post by killedbyboard on May 7, 2024 14:53:05 GMT -5
Quick question: is paying for a sex worker ethical consumption? Only if they're union. Union "Member"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2024 14:54:55 GMT -5
Quick question: is paying for a sex worker ethical consumption? Ethical comBUSTion
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Mr. Dingle Foot
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Post by Mr. Dingle Foot on May 7, 2024 14:56:07 GMT -5
Quick question: is paying for a sex worker ethical consumption? Ethical comBUSTion ethical cumbustin Am i right fellas
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burp
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Post by burp on May 7, 2024 15:00:21 GMT -5
"no ethical consumption" etc etc always seemed like a cheap empty influencer phrase to justify doing/changing nothing, to dismiss any consequence, and to encourage consumption without worrying about "icky" ethical concerns.
hack ur morals with this one weird trick!
just say "it's all the same" and u'll be lining up to buy Hasan Piker Funkopops in no time!
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Perm’d by God
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Post by Perm’d by God on May 7, 2024 15:00:49 GMT -5
Foreman at the dicksucking factory local 69 makes sense that you would know them but you seem like an employee who would side with the owner. That is an accusation without merit.
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