theywalkedinline
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Post by theywalkedinline on Oct 28, 2019 11:55:44 GMT -5
To be fair. I'm religious and haven't been able to have a decent discussion about religion since I started on here or the last board 15 years ago. Tyburn and New Fury are the only leftist religious folk on here I know of. We've all got problems. = (
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 12:03:42 GMT -5
That's totally valid. I know I don't have any animosity toward anyone on here. I'm just trying to grill.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 12:05:56 GMT -5
I love me some Christianity. GK Chesterton and Ecclesiastes all day.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 12:09:29 GMT -5
I'm just trying to grill.
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Sorley Boy
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Post by Sorley Boy on Oct 28, 2019 12:27:27 GMT -5
Last few pages have been sorta interesting huh? I’m just going to chime in on this most recent topic of Marxism in America today and agree that it is more or less a relic...due to the Truman administration (and nearly every president after that) systematically dismantling and destroying the Left. I’m sure most of you are aware of Roosevelt and Wallace, The New Deal, Communist Party, Workers Party, Labor Unions, etc so no need to go into the history. But, my point is that Marxism didn’t die, it was murdered. And now, it’s making a come back. As mentioned above, these strikes, cries for income equality, housing, transportation, medical care, etc are all very clear indicators that people are just done with Capitalism. It’s just not sustainable. Just because they haven’t read the Manifesto front to back doesn’t mean they aren’t acutely aware of the class struggle that exists and that it needs to be addressed. Obviously Marxist thought had a role in developing the modern world and political consciousness, but specifically Marxist/"communist" politics are a relic in every other developed country as well. People are entitled to their hobbies, but as a practical matter communism is irrelevant in economically advanced, democratic states.
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lil stormy
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Post by lil stormy on Oct 28, 2019 12:31:43 GMT -5
I love me some Christianity. GK Chesterton and Ecclesiastes all day. Me too. What i love most about Christianity is it never leads to problems.
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roofies
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Post by roofies on Oct 28, 2019 12:31:49 GMT -5
I intentionally post provocatively to get heavy responses. And it works. I dunno what causes some of you Marxists to get so fired up. The only other people that get so worked up over their beliefs are religious types, and goddamn far right morons. It's easy to find a soft spot and go for it.
Not that I'm saying I purely shitpost all the time, but my original post about communism that started this discussion was definitely a shitpost.
In all seriousness, I do think humanity is a reflection of itself. And that if he cant pull out heads out of our asses, we are going to face some hard consequences very soon. In a sense if we cant get it together, then I dunno why people think our species should go on. But ultimately I think we will get it together, and it's going to be via new ideas. Not old ideals that revolve around working, class struggle and old school marxism. I just cant grasp why on the verge of 2020, we need to look at the words of dead men to navigate us through reality. Be it religion or politics.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 12:31:52 GMT -5
All I'm ever trying to do is grill and/or throw something on the smoker with a beer in my hand.
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Yung Nick
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Post by Yung Nick on Oct 28, 2019 12:34:22 GMT -5
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lil stormy
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Post by lil stormy on Oct 28, 2019 12:47:55 GMT -5
I'm just trying to watch old movies.
I don't grill.
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forestpoetry
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Post by forestpoetry on Oct 28, 2019 12:51:25 GMT -5
forget what it’s from, could’ve been a podcast or an article, but it basically discusses how to exist as a Marxist-Leninist in a Capitalist society without becoming profoundly depressed lol I know some of you muchachos can relate to that. I def can. the labor movement in general has been in sharp decline since the 1970s because the economic conditions of unprecedented growth in the manufacturing and industrial sector was a historical fluke that can never be repeated. of course political repression has something to do with this, but the actual conditions that made these movements possible no longer exist. this isn't just true in the US, it's true everywhere and has been for awhile. Marxism was just one among a long list of ideas circulating in that period, and its really a fluke that in some backwards shithole that wasn't even considered Europe in 1917 there was a revolution, and the people that buried it and built a gigantic capitalist war machine claimed to be marxists; before that they were barely a blip on the radar. And even after that, the majority of the workers movement was never marxist, that's just bullshit red-baiting to undermine the whole thing/ego stroking on the part of apparatchiks (turns out it wasn't really revolutionary, either: in Europe it managed to get what it wanted which was a social safety net and the bullshit liberalism that we're now watching collapse under its own weight). If you think 'communism' means the labor movement, then yes, steep decline, sure. Capitalism in terms of its core principles is same as it ever was, but the structure of the labor pole of the labor-capital relation has been drastically revamped. There's a reason the exciting labor based movements in this country nowadays have rarely have much to do with industrial production.[EDIT] In fact, i'll take it a step further; it often looks like it has nothing to do with work at all (think about things like Occupy, Arab Spring, Movement of the Squares, what is now called BLM, etc). If what you mean by communism is "the real movement that abolishes the present state of things" and presents a collective vision of establishing a future that is directly democratic, non-hierarchical, and based on principles of mutual aid and solidarity then we are currently living through an important moment in which, as always, the choice is between socialism or barbarism.
As someone who has been involved in whatever you want to call this for decades I am constantly floored by how often things we used to have scream to get anyone to even notice are now just common sense to a lot of people. Unfortunately what many people are trying to pass off as socialism is just more barbarism; they want to dig up the corpse of an unworkable past. This is why it's important to be out in the streets and in meetings and where ever people are finding one another, not as the brilliant genius leadership of the ignorant masses like all the bolshevik adjacent tendencies imagine, but as one among many (what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one?). Being a Marxist-Leninist makes you depressed because it's an egomaniacal recapitulation of great-man theory dressed up as class politics: you will not cause, lead, or win a revolution, you are subject to the same historical forces as everyone else. I don't give a shit if people say they're communists or anarchists (these often just function as red flags to indicate someone's adherence to completely meaningless debates about things you have no control over), I care about coming together with other people and trying to stop the planet from burning to death, and I don't think I have a choice.
And yes, this is deeply depressing. But they're kicking at your front door, how the fuck else are you gonna come?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 13:02:52 GMT -5
I'm going back a bit but the usual milquetoast centrist/radlibs in this thread talking about China is never not embarrassing and hyper dogmatic. Nobody has ever said China is some perfect entity at the moment, but if you seriously think China is the same or worse than the US you are just a dumbass. No way around it. China cancelled Ethiopia's debt of $12bn, you dorks will never talk about that. China cancelled $78mil of Cameroon's debt, you dorks will never talk about that. Djibouti needed help, China stepped in when America wouldn't, and you dipshits will never talk about it. www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-04-06/djibouti-needed-help-china-had-money-and-now-the-u-s-and-france-are-worried"In China, an electric bus wouldn’t be unusual at all. Out of almost 425,000 e-buses worldwide at the end of last year, some 421,000 were in China." www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-15/in-shift-to-electric-bus-it-s-china-ahead-of-u-s-421-000-to-300The US has 300 electric busses in comparison, but...you know. Please, the anti communism in this thread is dripping in hyper ideology that you accuse of others. Be real
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theywalkedinline
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Post by theywalkedinline on Oct 28, 2019 13:10:01 GMT -5
I love me some Christianity. GK Chesterton and Ecclesiastes all day. Check out Ammon Hennacy. He has been a big influence on me. Fr. Daniel Berrigan: And, of course, the most famous Christian Socialist of the last century -no matter how the right tries to white wash him- Martin Luther King Jr. King's social theology is really a good read and overlooked by people that want to turn his legacy into something completely different.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 13:30:37 GMT -5
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☭ Bob Loblaw ☭
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Post by ☭ Bob Loblaw ☭ on Oct 28, 2019 13:37:04 GMT -5
forget what it’s from, could’ve been a podcast or an article, but it basically discusses how to exist as a Marxist-Leninist in a Capitalist society without becoming profoundly depressed lol I know some of you muchachos can relate to that. I def can. the labor movement in general has been in sharp decline since the 1970s because the economic conditions of unprecedented growth in the manufacturing and industrial sector was a historical fluke that can never be repeated. of course political repression has something to do with this, but the actual conditions that made these movements possible no longer exist. this isn't just true in the US, it's true everywhere and has been for awhile. Marxism was just one among a long list of ideas circulating in that period, and its really a fluke that in some backwards shithole that wasn't even considered Europe in 1917 there was a revolution, and the people that buried it and built a gigantic capitalist war machine claimed to be marxists; before that they were barely a blip on the radar. And even after that, the majority of the workers movement was never marxist, that's just bullshit red-baiting to undermine the whole thing/ego stroking on the part of apparatchiks (turns out it wasn't really revolutionary, either: in Europe it managed to get what it wanted which was a social safety net and the bullshit liberalism that we're now watching collapse under its own weight). If you think 'communism' means the labor movement, then yes, steep decline, sure. Capitalism in terms of its core principles is same as it ever was, but the structure of the labor pole of the labor-capital relation has been drastically revamped. There's a reason the exciting labor based movements in this country nowadays have rarely have much to do with industrial production.[EDIT] In fact, i'll take it a step further; it often looks like it has nothing to do with work at all (think about things like Occupy, Arab Spring, Movement of the Squares, what is now called BLM, etc). If what you mean by communism is "the real movement that abolishes the present state of things" and presents a collective vision of establishing a future that is directly democratic, non-hierarchical, and based on principles of mutual aid and solidarity then we are currently living through an important moment in which, as always, the choice is between socialism or barbarism. As someone who has been involved in whatever you want to call this for decades I am constantly floored by how often things we used to have scream to get anyone to even notice are now just common sense to a lot of people. Unfortunately what many people are trying to pass off as socialism is just more barbarism; they want to dig up the corpse of an unworkable past. This is why it's important to be out in the streets and in meetings and where ever people are finding one another, not as the brilliant genius leadership of the ignorant masses like all the bolshevik adjacent tendencies imagine, but as one among many (what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one?). Being a Marxist-Leninist makes you depressed because it's an egomaniacal recapitulation of great-man theory dressed up as class politics: you will not cause, lead, or win a revolution, you are subject to the same historical forces as everyone else. I don't give a shit if people say they're communists or anarchists (these often just function as red flags to indicate someone's adherence to completely meaningless debates about things you have no control over), I care about coming together with other people and trying to stop the planet from burning to death, and I don't think I have a choice.
And yes, this is deeply depressing. But they're kicking at your front door, how the fuck else are you gonna come?
I was, of course, using very broad strokes to describe something that is insanely complicated and nuanced. I, for one, appreciate your apparent pragmatic approach to such an overwhelming task. I know we throw around the term Marxist and tankini often but I don’t see a whole lot of actual hero worship in these threads when it comes to applying such ideas here today. I personally don’t ascribe to the "Great Man" notion and fully realize that if (hopefully when) these ideas take hold it won’t, and shouldn’t, look exactly like 20th century Europe or Asia or South America .
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theywalkedinline
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Post by theywalkedinline on Oct 28, 2019 13:38:15 GMT -5
I'm going back a bit but the usual milquetoast centrist/radlibs in this thread talking about China is never not embarrassing and hyper dogmatic. Nobody has ever said China is some perfect entity at the moment, but if you seriously think China is the same or worse than the US you are just a dumbass. No way around it. China cancelled Ethiopia's debt of $12bn, you dorks will never talk about that. China cancelled $78mil of Cameroon's debt, you dorks will never talk about that. Djibouti needed help, China stepped in when America wouldn't, and you dipshits will never talk about it. www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-04-06/djibouti-needed-help-china-had-money-and-now-the-u-s-and-france-are-worried"In China, an electric bus wouldn’t be unusual at all. Out of almost 425,000 e-buses worldwide at the end of last year, some 421,000 were in China." www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-15/in-shift-to-electric-bus-it-s-china-ahead-of-u-s-421-000-to-300The US has 300 electric busses in comparison, but...you know. Please, the anti communism in this thread is dripping in hyper ideology that you accuse of others. Be real Thoughts on the China Labor Bulletin, the rights of the Chinese to form independent labor unions, and the treatment of Han Dongfang?
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theywalkedinline
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Post by theywalkedinline on Oct 28, 2019 14:18:25 GMT -5
A Theology of Liberation: Gustavo Gutierrez This book influenced everyone from Chavez to Cornell West. Dom Helder Camara: Essential Writings Another influence on Chavez and proponent of non Marxist socialism. "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist." - Fr. Camara
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Ass Dan
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Post by Ass Dan on Oct 28, 2019 14:32:36 GMT -5
Sami how is any of that enough to make up for the treatment of ethnic and religious minorities, or dissidents?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 14:48:35 GMT -5
Is China paying off all these Muslim countries?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 15:09:21 GMT -5
I mean can we agree that both the US and China both suck shit and shouldn't be used as the epitome of of anything remotely positive?
I'll see myself out for the day.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 15:13:01 GMT -5
It's less than 10 minutes and would really like thoughts on this. It's a private exchange but holds one of the most important kernels of Marx's thought. If listening/watching is too distracting, it's a shorter read (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/letters/43_09.htm) It is inherently self critical and humbling, it's inscribed into the methodology. If any discussion moving forward always begins with death tolls or asking for a defense of Mao, it's missing the point. We can spend pages (as shown) of how to flesh out intricacies, contradictions and so on. We do it ourselves and with one another all the time. It sometimes feels like the knee jerk responses from everyone when Marx is brought up are so ingrained as a way to avoid what I think is the unsettling part of his work that most people have some level of innate feeling of understanding.
What I find most useful is his understanding and critique of ideology as such the process of becoming conscious of it. That we're historical agents whether we are aware of it or not and whether we like it or not when we realize it. That's the humbling and heavy part that fascinates me. It's understanding capital itself as the revolutionary force when it only serves itself. From here you can trace developments and approach so many areas of life and follow its respective trajectory. It's simply a stage of development and productive organization with very interesting internal contradictions that have serious implications moving forward. We can't see beyond it though. That's what is so odd about it. This idea we just need new ideas requires an understanding of the old ideas. These concepts of socialized production and democratic control aren't simply relics but as far as I understand, necessary requirements not only for our collective survival but for the possibility to thrive.
When we're asked, what should we do? It's not individual dogmatic apinion but this very process of being collectively responsible for our role in shaping what should we do. It's a struggle.
Freedom is scary. It's the struggle of accepting this burden of responsibility. I don't think it is a coincidence that most of us are all kind of depressed about this stuff. It's not isolating in some sense we scream about capitalism all the time, everyone else is so dumb but me! It's witnessing and realizing this defeated collective spirit in others. This quiet submission that yeah, things are pretty messed up and we have serious problems but there's nothing I can do, just please let us all live this out with whatever level of comfort we can compromise to avoid this difficulty.
It's annoying to always combat this idea of being elitist eggheads when I know for a fact those of us into this on here aren't even middle class and work in manual labor. I didn't get into it as some college course but as a process of asking myself questions about social relations and everything about being pulled from the ether and understanding living in this world. It gave me the language to articulate these feelings and have it confirmed in these discussions with others. We deal with enough people who conflate all of these stereotypes of eggheads or the online larping identity of those who fetishize aesthetics. Plenty of people on job sites or the soup kitchen have these varying levels of discontentment, alienation and general uneasiness. We may not use the same language but sharing these feelings are a step in solidarity. It's not just a hobby to have an idea of something then be dedicated to understanding it from various points of view, understanding how those views may be shaped and so on. It's a practical way to ground myself in developing my ethics and values. It's what forest wrote above, you work with everyone who is dedicated to building something and alleviating suffering and lack where it may exist. I don't have patience to debate people who want to trash some charity or volunteer work because of some religious affiliation or this is just bandaid liberalism. No shit. It's a material action to meet immediate needs while developing stronger social bonds necessary moving towards socialism.
It's not cheap moralizing but a framework to remain dedicated to a constant critical and responsible position towards oneself and their responsibilities towards others. Dialectical materialism is a helluva drug folks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 15:13:56 GMT -5
A Theology of Liberation: Gustavo Gutierrez This book influenced everyone from Chavez to Cornell West. Dom Helder Camara: Essential Writings Another influence on Chavez and proponent of non Marxist socialism. "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist." - Fr. Camara Added to the library holds. Thanks dawg.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 15:25:41 GMT -5
I'm going back a bit but the usual milquetoast centrist/radlibs in this thread talking about China is never not embarrassing and hyper dogmatic. Nobody has ever said China is some perfect entity at the moment, but if you seriously think China is the same or worse than the US you are just a dumbass. No way around it. China cancelled Ethiopia's debt of $12bn, you dorks will never talk about that. China cancelled $78mil of Cameroon's debt, you dorks will never talk about that. Djibouti needed help, China stepped in when America wouldn't, and you dipshits will never talk about it. www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-04-06/djibouti-needed-help-china-had-money-and-now-the-u-s-and-france-are-worried"In China, an electric bus wouldn’t be unusual at all. Out of almost 425,000 e-buses worldwide at the end of last year, some 421,000 were in China." www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-15/in-shift-to-electric-bus-it-s-china-ahead-of-u-s-421-000-to-300The US has 300 electric busses in comparison, but...you know. Please, the anti communism in this thread is dripping in hyper ideology that you accuse of others. Be real Thoughts on the China Labor Bulletin, the rights of the Chinese to form independent labor unions, and the treatment of Han Dongfang? You're conveniently avoiding what I'm saying but I'll play your game. Han DongFang founded the CLB which was initially and continually funded by the NED (a notable soft arm of the CIA). Totally reliable, obviously, since the CIA has NEVER used proxies in foreign countries (especially those working to build socialism) to push their own interests... www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/National-Endowment-for-Destabilization-CIA-Funds-for-Latin-America-in-2018-20190403-0042.htmlnedprogramsinhk.blogspot.com/2016/08/ned-grants-to-hong-kong-1994-to-2015.html?m=1I could go on and on with links but do you really give a shit? I chime in here once in a while when I see a supreme level of simplicity and cognitive dissonance from supposed "progressives." I'll leave you with this: "China's remarkable progress in reducing extreme poverty has significantly contributed to the decline in global poverty," said Hoon S. Soh, World Bank Program Leader for economic policy for China." en.people.cn/n3/2018/0305/c90000-9433193.html
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lobsterdog
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Post by lobsterdog on Oct 28, 2019 15:26:18 GMT -5
To be fair. I'm religious and haven't been able to have a decent discussion about religion since I started on here or the last board 15 years ago. Tyburn and New Fury are the only leftist religious folk on here I know of. We've all got problems. = ( Religion is not allowed in leftism.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 15:29:28 GMT -5
I mean can we agree that both the US and China both suck shit and shouldn't be used as the epitome of of anything remotely positive? I'll see myself out for the day. I mean, this is the simplistic nonsense I'm talking about but go off.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 15:33:47 GMT -5
I mean can we agree that both the US and China both suck shit and shouldn't be used as the epitome of of anything remotely positive? I'll see myself out for the day. I mean, this is the simplistic nonsense I'm talking about but go off. Nothing I have said today has been anything BUT self aware simplistic nonsense because the last dozen pages of this thread are you turds shitting on one another, but by all means, give another dissertation that I'm not going to read.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 15:35:23 GMT -5
I wish someone would accept a paragraph and a half long dissertation tbh
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 15:36:09 GMT -5
On top of that, re-read my simplistic nonsense that you seemed to ignore the point of: Key word was epitome.
Both countries do things that can and should be held in high regard, but someone crying about China (or the US for that matter) not being referred to as the moral compass they think it should be is dumb as fuck.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 15:38:12 GMT -5
To be fair, what else is going to happen when it's a constant gish gallop of nonsense?
FOUR BILLION POLITICAL PRISONERS
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 15:40:02 GMT -5
To be fair, what else is going to happen when it's a constant gish gallop of nonsense? I don't expect anything less at this point, and am mostly here out of boredom in between shit at work. I'd say there's something to be said about not adding anything productive, but me not being here between Friday and this morning didn't exactly stop the drooling.
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