Sorley Boy
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Post by Sorley Boy on Oct 27, 2019 19:21:29 GMT -5
Is that where we deny or ignore any established facts that contradict our hyperideological understanding of the world?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 19:23:02 GMT -5
Genuine question for y'all. So what do we do? Like, we stay the course? The enlightenment view of progress got us so far but maybe it's a similar ideological trapping to believe progress is linear? Especially when material interests moving forward with the ecological crisis contradicts capitalist production. I'm dumb so please tell me what to do and think. Help me please. I need to understand nuance and the error of my ways.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 19:23:51 GMT -5
No. Because you have to understand they didn't build capitalism out of feudalism over night either. It took many hundreds of years in some places. Historically that's just the facts. And along the way, every step of the way, that would mean there are any amount of contradictions you could pick out of the lot.
That's what I am getting at when I ask if you think you can construct an entirely new system without any elements of the old one? Because things that are in contradiction are what ultimately creates change. It's how you actually engage with something in order to change it. You can't just mold socialism out of thin air.
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svejk
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Post by svejk on Oct 27, 2019 19:26:19 GMT -5
Genuine question for y'all. So what do we do? Like, we stay the course? The enlightenment view of progress got us so far but maybe it's a similar ideological trapping to believe progress is linear? Especially when material interests moving forward with the ecological crisis contradicts capitalist production. I'm dumb so please tell me what to do and think. Help me please. I need to understand nuance and the error of my ways.
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theywalkedinline
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Post by theywalkedinline on Oct 27, 2019 19:33:05 GMT -5
Does accumulation include oppression and theft of natural resources and labor in Africa? It seems like they're following the Western or American playbook more than the Marx playbook. Bro... the U.S. builds military bases and occupies oil fields. The IMF lends loans with stipulations of dictating policy if nations are unable to pay back. China builds infrastructure and writes off debt. China also strips countries of their own natural resources, makes deals with corrupt dictators and suppresses organized labor. The Collum Coal Mine incident is a pretty good example of China spreading that "socialist" love. www.hrw.org/report/2011/11/04/youll-be-fired-if-you-refuse/labor-abuses-zambias-chinese-state-owned-copper-minesWhataboutism isn't an argument. China is an oppressive dictatorship that doesn't value free speech, democratic values, nor does it value labor or it's workers (people are expendable). It is grotesque state capitalism, not the first step toward socialist utopia.
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anointed
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Post by anointed on Oct 27, 2019 19:38:12 GMT -5
Bro... the U.S. builds military bases and occupies oil fields. The IMF lends loans with stipulations of dictating policy if nations are unable to pay back. China builds infrastructure and writes off debt. China also strips countries of their own natural resources, makes deals with corrupt dictators and suppresses organized labor. The Collum Coal Mine incident is a pretty good example of China spreading that "socialist" love. www.hrw.org/report/2011/11/04/youll-be-fired-if-you-refuse/labor-abuses-zambias-chinese-state-owned-copper-minesWhataboutism isn't an argument. China is an oppressive dictatorship that doesn't value free speech, democratic values, nor does it value labor or it's workers (people are expendable). It is grotesque state capitalism, not the first step toward socialist utopia. Worst of all, they eat dog. Not cool.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 19:40:10 GMT -5
It's not so much "whataboutism" as it's just "making a point." You can't really just point to a single component of capitalism and claim there is no transition taking place. You can't do it with any social organization. It's a wholly idealistic argument and not structural to say that. I've already mentioned how when transitions take place, they take a long time to occur. There will always be elements that remain. If you want to understand the Marxist critique and understanding of transitioning epochs, you have to actually engage with it honestly. www.marxists.org/archive/harman/1989/xx/transition.html
With that said, I'm out for a bit. You guys just aren't very fun.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 19:42:40 GMT -5
Help me please. I need to understand nuance and the error of my ways. Almost everyone died there.
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svejk
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Post by svejk on Oct 27, 2019 19:46:32 GMT -5
It's not so much "whataboutism" as it's just "making a point." You can't really just point to a single component of capitalism and claim there is no transition taking place. You can't do it with any social organization. It's a wholly idealistic argument and not structural to say that. I've already mentioned how when transitions take place, they take a long time to occur. There will always be elements that remain. If you want to understand the Marxist critique and understanding of transitioning epochs, you have to actually engage with it honestly. www.marxists.org/archive/harman/1989/xx/transition.html
With that said, I'm out for a bit. You guys just aren't very fun.
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theywalkedinline
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Post by theywalkedinline on Oct 27, 2019 19:48:41 GMT -5
It's not so much "whataboutism" as it's just "making a point." You can't really just point to a single component of capitalism and claim there is no transition taking place. You can't do it with any social organization. It's a wholly idealistic argument and not structural to say that. I've already mentioned how when transitions take place, they take a long time to occur. There will always be elements that remain. If you want to understand the Marxist critique and understanding of transitioning epochs, you have to actually engage with it honestly. www.marxists.org/archive/harman/1989/xx/transition.html
With that said, I'm out for a bit. You guys just aren't very fun.
www.dissentmagazine.org/article/making-china-marxist-again-xi-jinping-thought"The revival of governing by ideology, which requires this single narrative, is Xi’s goal as well—a time-tested form of Chinese statecraft. His goal of making China Marxist again is to shore up state authority, rejuvenate the Chinese people, and polish the global image both of the country as well as “socialism with Chinese characteristics.” It is not to help the people rise up—workers of the world seeking to lose their chains will have to look elsewhere." This is a good summary of where China is at. The government has been great at promoting nationalism and party, not empowering the worker.
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theywalkedinline
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Post by theywalkedinline on Oct 27, 2019 19:51:41 GMT -5
You'd be much more gullible to believe you just go do a revolution and you've instantly got a communism on your hands. And what they're doing via capitalism is building their production in order to provide for themselves. It's the accumulation process. I hope the Lambo dealership in Beijing didn't sign a long lease. The amount of supercars I saw in both China and Vietnam rivaled any place I have ever been, except maybe Vegas (granted I have never been to the middle east).
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Sorley Boy
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Post by Sorley Boy on Oct 27, 2019 21:42:08 GMT -5
Yeah, I've been to a lot of big cities and that shopping street a few blocks from Tiananmen is beyond anything I've seen outside the Strip. A fair number of homeless people too. You can tell how hard they're working to "build socialism."
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pbcookies
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Post by pbcookies on Oct 27, 2019 22:01:38 GMT -5
shocker that the people in this thread who actually have firsthand experience in China know what a grotesque materialistic capitalist inegalitarian shitshow it actually is
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pbcookies
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Post by pbcookies on Oct 27, 2019 22:03:45 GMT -5
If you're Marxist, I disagree that that's a productive way to spend your mental energy, but fine.
But China ain't the one, guys
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anointed
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Post by anointed on Oct 27, 2019 22:05:12 GMT -5
what's a good example of communism?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 22:41:31 GMT -5
China also strips countries of their own natural resources, makes deals with corrupt dictators and suppresses organized labor. The Collum Coal Mine incident is a pretty good example of China spreading that "socialist" love. www.hrw.org/report/2011/11/04/youll-be-fired-if-you-refuse/labor-abuses-zambias-chinese-state-owned-copper-minesWhataboutism isn't an argument. China is an oppressive dictatorship that doesn't value free speech, democratic values, nor does it value labor or it's workers (people are expendable). It is grotesque state capitalism, not the first step toward socialist utopia. Worst of all, they eat dog. Not cool. There is nothing wrong with eating dog unless we're discussing eating any kind of meat. Fuck off with this racist shit.
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anointed
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Post by anointed on Oct 27, 2019 22:42:22 GMT -5
Worst of all, they eat dog. Not cool. There is nothing wrong with eating dog unless we're discussing eating any kind of meat. Fuck off with this racist shit. Where was I being racist? I was stating a fact... they eat dog.
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redstarohyeah
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Post by redstarohyeah on Oct 27, 2019 22:46:24 GMT -5
Should just eat the rich instead.
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lalanointed
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Post by lalanointed on Oct 27, 2019 23:05:06 GMT -5
Hello guys how's it going?
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heathenist
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Post by heathenist on Oct 27, 2019 23:06:50 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with eating dog unless we're discussing eating any kind of meat. Fuck off with this racist shit. Where was I being racist? I was stating a fact... they eat dog. So you’re vegan?
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anointed
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Post by anointed on Oct 27, 2019 23:07:26 GMT -5
Where was I being racist? I was stating a fact... they eat dog. So you’re vegan? yes
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roofies
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Post by roofies on Oct 27, 2019 23:21:50 GMT -5
My girlfriends dog is a rescue from a Chinese meat market. Sometimes I really wish I could eat it because it’s annoying as hell.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 0:47:26 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with eating dog unless we're discussing eating any kind of meat. Fuck off with this racist shit. Where was I being racist? I was stating a fact... they eat dog. You weren't just stating a fact. You didn't just say "they eat dog." Generalizing all Chinese, Vietnamese or Asians with "eating dog" is an excuse to connect them to something you consider negative. It's you perceiving an entire population as beneath you because they choose to eat something that you can't wrap your head around or that you consider weird. Grow up.
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anointed
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Post by anointed on Oct 28, 2019 0:53:21 GMT -5
Where was I being racist? I was stating a fact... they eat dog. You weren't just stating a fact. You didn't just say "they eat dog." Generalizing all Chinese, Vietnamese or Asians with "eating dog" is an excuse to connect them to something you consider negative. It's you perceiving an entire population as beneath you because they choose to eat something that you can't wrap your head around or that you consider weird. Grow up. My bad, dude, some Chinese people eat dog. Cool?
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roofies
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Post by roofies on Oct 28, 2019 1:50:51 GMT -5
Isnt racism rejudice + power? Isnt China the worlds superpower, and its citizens in a better position that white Americans? So how van we be racist towards them?
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Ass Dan
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Post by Ass Dan on Oct 28, 2019 5:20:22 GMT -5
China’s still number 2. They’re trying, and the orange goblin is helping them, but they don’t rival us militarily, the dollar is still the world’s reserve currency, they have a higher GDP but that’s kinda meaningless.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 6:11:05 GMT -5
The thing I can never wrap my head around is how some people on here are big stans for China, yet complain about the Nordic countries or Bolivia for being too capitalist. It's like they're addicted to authoritarianism.
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roofies
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Post by roofies on Oct 28, 2019 6:24:54 GMT -5
The thing I can never wrap my head around is how some people on here are big stans for China, yet complain about the Nordic countries or Bolivia for being too capitalist. It's like they're addicted to authoritarianism. Well look at their replies to me. As soon as I challenge their beliefs, or have a minor disagreement, they call me trash, make jokes about suicide, just an overall condescending attitude towards others who don't share their dogma. So yes, they are adducted to authoritarianism, because it is proven to work within communist societies. Dissent against the vast majority of communism has always been met with oppression. It's seems it's inherent within the belief structure of communism. And this is coming from someone who is a fan of socialism. I will never get the want to go that FAR left that you're in the red authoritarianism zone while claiming your for equality.
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theywalkedinline
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Post by theywalkedinline on Oct 28, 2019 7:05:03 GMT -5
I’m not vegan and I think that eating dog is inherently wrong. This is a pretty widely held view in Asia, too. Eating dog is usually looked at as backwards and archaic. Call me racist if you want, but I’m definitely speciesist.
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theywalkedinline
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Post by theywalkedinline on Oct 28, 2019 8:22:13 GMT -5
When does Marxism in the United States leave the confines of academia, podcasts, and internet forums and become a worker's movement? How do you have a worker's revolution with no workers?
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