Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 1:55:45 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 1:57:25 GMT -5
What’s the political party that wants to kill billionaires until we end global poverty? Does that make me a Stalinist? Apparently no one means what they say here so let’s aim for the stars. I'm just looking for the political party who wants to loot rich people's shit for our own personal enjoyment tbh. Can anyone help??
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deadsouls
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Post by deadsouls on Oct 29, 2019 1:59:57 GMT -5
Bro why aren't we irl buds Probably because no one wants to hang out with a stay at home dad in their mid 30’s that’s doing grad school online. I don’t blame them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 5:19:40 GMT -5
The Nordic Model was possible due to post-war Europe and can't just be replicated. It also is supported on the backs of imperialism, is prone to concession, and lacks features like full employment. So China and the USSR weren't built on the backs of imperialism? Fucking LOL, you're just choosing to ignore history at this point. And China has nearly an identical unemployment rate as Denmark and Sweden, so again what are we really getting at here? Sure China might not seem as bad as the US, but it's far from some anti-capitalist and leftist utopia. Thing is too is saying how the Nordic model can't be replicated, when that's exactly what Bernie and other DSA politicians have based their platforms on. I don't think anyone acts like it's perfect because no system is, but there's more positives to take away from it than others being used today.
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theywalkedinline
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Post by theywalkedinline on Oct 29, 2019 5:27:37 GMT -5
Thanks whitey. I'll let the black liberation theology community know that they're not welcome because a neck beard on BIL said so. your beef is with lenin, not me. If only collectivism and socialism existed before Lenin.
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Frederik
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Looking California and feeling Minnesota
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Post by Frederik on Oct 29, 2019 7:55:28 GMT -5
So, did everyone says what they need say about the following:
-China -Lenin -Marxism: esoteric economic model or engine of the future? -Colinialism: Only the West? -The Nordic Model: Can it be replicated? -Liberation Theology -Hyper-capitalism in East Asia -Black Pill ideology
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 8:04:41 GMT -5
I don't fully know enough to post on [topic redacted because it's not what my point is] I know I'm picking out a single quote to fit the point I want to make, but in regards to "not being able to have discussions," the fact that we've been specifically arguing about Communism in China for about 15 pages is why we're getting dogshit quality joke posting in here (myself included). There seem to be three types of responses to topics in here for most topics: -I know what I'm talking about and am trying to have a serious conversation about it -I don't know what I'm talking about but love to hear myself talk despite not being able to form a coherent point, much less counterpoint -I don't know what I'm talking about but ya'll are wild AF Hell, I'll add a fourth considering I was guilty of it, albeit on purpose: -I barely understand what the fuck we're talking about so here's a gross oversimplification that while technically correct, is barely what we're talking about.
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Yung Nick
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troubled yoot
I'm at da store what do u need???
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Post by Yung Nick on Oct 29, 2019 8:28:49 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 8:31:36 GMT -5
Beaned this early on a Tuesday damn.
Just tryna live laugh love learn and lennin with my boys.
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lobsterdog
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🍔how the gods grill🌭
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Post by lobsterdog on Oct 29, 2019 9:01:07 GMT -5
Curious, what was my last “meltdown”? idk you're always bellyaching about something Damn, weird that a DACA recipient would be constantly stressed out and complaining about life in America. Can't imagine what might be contributing to that...
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198d
Turgid Member
IN A CHRISTIAN METALCORE BAND
Marxist cosplayer
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Post by 198d on Oct 29, 2019 9:02:03 GMT -5
What’s up in here?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 9:04:03 GMT -5
"Marxist cosplayer" You're about 20 pages too late
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 9:04:48 GMT -5
Sometimes history needs a push.
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Porch Honky
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Post by Porch Honky on Oct 29, 2019 9:07:24 GMT -5
idk you're always bellyaching about something Damn, weird that a DACA recipient would be constantly stressed out and complaining about life in America. Can't imagine what might be contributing to that... Yeah, I think it's absolutely disgusting the way PB and Dylan treat him on here. Would make Bush era righties proud.
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refill
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Post by refill on Oct 29, 2019 9:10:31 GMT -5
If refill doesn't un-dislike this or use his words and only passive aggressively dislikes this without explaining why this is wrong I will spend at least 5 minutes coming up with a new title for him Haha, accidental click.
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198d
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Post by 198d on Oct 29, 2019 9:14:24 GMT -5
Why are you people sitting here throwing out words like “utopian” or “perfect.” The world is complex. Fuck having to disclaimer your defense of something because dudes like Sorely are still living in the bubble of western exceptionalism.
Also, Marx is truth because dialectical materialism is the only way to analyze history correctly. Deal with it, sweetie.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 9:35:13 GMT -5
The Nordic Model was possible due to post-war Europe and can't just be replicated. It also is supported on the backs of imperialism, is prone to concession, and lacks features like full employment. So China and the USSR weren't built on the backs of imperialism? Fucking LOL, you're just choosing to ignore history at this point. And China has nearly an identical unemployment rate as Denmark and Sweden, so again what are we really getting at here? Sure China might not seem as bad as the US, but it's far from some anti-capitalist and leftist utopia. Thing is too is saying how the Nordic model can't be replicated, when that's exactly what Bernie and other DSA politicians have based their platforms on. I don't think anyone acts like it's perfect because no system is, but there's more positives to take away from it than others being used today. Pure nonsense Bro u just posted cringe... Big time
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theywalkedinline
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Post by theywalkedinline on Oct 29, 2019 9:53:21 GMT -5
Texas is getting ready to kill a man on death row with overwhelming evidence that he's innocent.
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Radiation
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I love fries
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Post by Radiation on Oct 29, 2019 10:00:13 GMT -5
Anybody know if there is some informative documentary-esque thing about the life and politics of Mao Zedong? I'm not smart so I can't read political texts very well
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 10:05:04 GMT -5
Texas is getting ready to kill a man on death row with overwhelming evidence that he's innocent. Link to the story if you can? Not familiar with it and a google search of "texas death row" brings up 66 million results.
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198d
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Post by 198d on Oct 29, 2019 10:10:20 GMT -5
So China and the USSR weren't built on the backs of imperialism? Fucking LOL, you're just choosing to ignore history at this point. And China has nearly an identical unemployment rate as Denmark and Sweden, so again what are we really getting at here? Sure China might not seem as bad as the US, but it's far from some anti-capitalist and leftist utopia. Thing is too is saying how the Nordic model can't be replicated, when that's exactly what Bernie and other DSA politicians have based their platforms on. I don't think anyone acts like it's perfect because no system is, but there's more positives to take away from it than others being used today. Pure nonsense Bro u just posted cringe... Big time Like, how do you even arrive at this conclusion? We can have a conversation about China and the USSR’s foreign policies in the latter half of the 20th century, but saying they were “built on the backs of imperialism” has literally never been argued by anyone. Not even the most reactionary person would make such a claim. LENIN THE GREAT IMPERIALIST!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 10:10:26 GMT -5
So China and the USSR weren't built on the backs of imperialism? Fucking LOL, you're just choosing to ignore history at this point. And China has nearly an identical unemployment rate as Denmark and Sweden, so again what are we really getting at here? Sure China might not seem as bad as the US, but it's far from some anti-capitalist and leftist utopia. Thing is too is saying how the Nordic model can't be replicated, when that's exactly what Bernie and other DSA politicians have based their platforms on. I don't think anyone acts like it's perfect because no system is, but there's more positives to take away from it than others being used today. Pure nonsense Bro u just posted cringe... Big time K, it's still not as cringe as you lot trying to prove that Holodomor was a natural occurrence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 10:11:58 GMT -5
Pure nonsense Bro u just posted cringe... Big time K, it's still not as cringe as you lot trying to prove that Holodomor was a natural occurrence.
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theywalkedinline
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Post by theywalkedinline on Oct 29, 2019 10:13:09 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 10:22:05 GMT -5
Pure nonsense Bro u just posted cringe... Big time Like, how do you even arrive at this conclusion? We can have a conversation about China and the USSR’s foreign policies in the latter half of the 20th century, but saying they were “built on the backs of imperialism” has literally never been argued by anyone. Not even the most reactionary person would make such a claim. LENIN THE GREAT IMPERIALIST! Maybe saying it was built on the backs of it was a wrong way to put it, but are we really just gonna ignore Soviet expansion and Tibet? I'm never going to pretend that I understand the theory better than you lot, but you all ignore clear parts of history and it just makes you look hypocritical when considering the standards you hold other countries too.
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theywalkedinline
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Post by theywalkedinline on Oct 29, 2019 10:23:05 GMT -5
ITT: people that almost all support the same presidential candidate True. If we don't stick together Klobuchar will never get the nomination.
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pbcookies
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Post by pbcookies on Oct 29, 2019 10:29:30 GMT -5
It feels like tensions are running high today and I feel like I should reiterate that I like and respect most of the people on here I disagree with and that certainly includes you. But like I just said to seangp we have some fundamental disagreements and I'm pretty uninterested in doing a chapter-and-verse deep dive on Marxist economics because we both have our cognitive biases and know where it will end up anyway. I think I actually do understand your argument quite well, it just doesn't jive with how I see reality, and I think from an objective standpoint a lot of Marxist views are relatively esoteric in today's world and I don't really feel an obligation to take all of them on. Hitting the hay, tomorrow is another big day toiling away as an almost cartoonish representation of a proletariat. My good sir, You clearly do not understand my argument "quite well" as I have called out your creation of straw men because you didn't want to engage the points you're now openly admitting to not being interested in understanding. This was well after two attempted requests to clarify where anyone had suggested China as a viable model. It is also hard to make an objective claim about the relevance of a viewpoint when you demonstrated you don't even understand it and have no interest in doing so. What were you saying about bad faith? Love ya and sweet dreams. dds5 Sorry but this all still feels a bit coy to me. Nobody has said verbatim that China, NK, Venezuela et al are viable models (that I can recall), but if not, why is there often such glowing praise heaped on them on this board? You guys admire dictatorial states you consider inviable because...why again? I was mostly referring to spsp saying that China is an example of capital accumulation, with further *implication* being that capital accumulation is a viable strategy and China being a prime example of said viable strategy. So (Steve Martin voice) excuuuuuuuse meeeeeee.
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forestpoetry
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Post by forestpoetry on Oct 29, 2019 10:40:23 GMT -5
if you're interested in chinese history or what's currently going on in hong kong from the perspective of comrades actually participating and not just clapping for the Chinese state or the more reactionary elements of a very diverse movement(seriously, it's embarrassing, stop. Also it's completely and entirely meaningless; it's like having a position on whether it should rain or not tomorrow, it's not up to you) you could go here: chuangcn.org/resources/ I trust these people.
the first issue of their magazine is up on the website which is an o-count of how China became what it is now. I don't agree with all of it but it's definitely worth reading.
mass movements are always filled with different tendencies and positions; like I said in my previous post no one here knows "better," you need to be there and with people in order to actually develop insights that point a way forward.
Warning: A little bit on religion, and then some marxist ephemera about lenin I don't understand the 'opposition' to religion, partially because I have no idea what people believe to be the content that that term refers to. The early socialists of whatever stripe were more extreme versions of liberal (not the way you guys use it here) humanists; they were reading Voltaire and shit like that where the critique of religion is idealist in the sense that it thinks beliefs about the world are the cause of the content of the world. So I get why they were thinking through those terms, but it's 2019 folks. Also Engels as a writer was pretty whack but his book on the German Peasant wars is fantastic, and if you haven't already read it EVERYONE should read the novel "Q" by Luther Blissett, it's absolutely fantastic and the narrator/POV character is a German anabaptist during the reformation who wants the kingdom of heaven NOW. The authors are an eyetalian anarchist collective under a pen name. Everything about it is great. Those interested in radical christian stuff would also do well to read Raoul Vaneigem's "Movement of the Free Spirit" (the author of "Revolution of Everyday Life," the other 'most important' Situationist text alongside "Society of the Spectacle").
Also it drives me absolutely insane that people always leave out the entirety of the context of this quote: "Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."
In other words, what Marx is identifying as 'the religious' is an expression of how fucked our society is, it is not its cause or whatever. When the central contradictions of our fucked up way of life are eliminated and real human flourishing actually becomes possible something like what I think the critics of religion on here are identifying will make absolutely no sense because it will have no material basis.
The Leninist 'critique' of religion is basically identical to the position of Bruno Bauer which Marx totally refutes in 'On the Jewish Question.' Lenin's philosophy in general is absolute trash, and he was not a particularly strong interpreter of Marx. Influential, sure, but those aren't the same thing. if you care about these types of things or call yourself a Marxist-Leninist you really need to read this: libcom.org/library/lenin-as-philosopher-pannekoekHere's Karl Korsch reviewing that piece back in 1938: "According to Pannekoek, it is rather a natural expression of the aims of the new class of the intelligentsia i.e., an ideology which the various strata belonging to this so-called new class would be likely to adopt as soon as they were freed from the ideological influence of the decaying bourgeoisie. Translated into philosophical terms, this means that the “new materialism” of Lenin is the great instrument which is now used by the Communist parties in the attempt to separate an important section of the bourgeoisie from the traditional religion and idealistic philosophies upheld by the upper and hitherto ruling strata of the bourgeois class, and to win them over to that system of state capitalistic planning of industry which for the workers means just another form of slavery and exploitation. This, according to Pannekoek, is the true political significance of Lenin’s materialistic philosophy."
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198d
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Post by 198d on Oct 29, 2019 10:42:32 GMT -5
The Chinese function in the real world and need to survive. It’s as simple as that. Who the fuck knows what they’ll continue to do in the long term. The only thing that is certain is if they don’t compete in the world economy, they’ll be an addition to the socialist graveyard.
The Soviets robbed banks and trains to fund their revolution. Lenin and Marx repeatedly advocated for using whatever means you have at your disposal to fund the cause.
Whether you trust the CCP or not is whatever, but there is a strategy here. You can read Deng yourself and decide if you buy what he sold (hehe)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 10:45:05 GMT -5
Thank you. I know it seemed lazy but I really was coming up empty. Is this something actually catching traction in Texas or is it just being ignored?
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